Train Travel: Vacations By Rail Tours & Itineraries

Rail Travel and Vacations

[00:00:00] Nasreen: welcome to another episode of Time to Talk Travel. I'm here today with Desiree from the Time to Talk Travel team, and we have a guest on today, Liz Owens from Vacations by Rail. We have brought up on multiple episodes the idea of taking train trips and getting to see multiple things in one trip, and how do you do that?

We are super excited to have her explain How you can string these different sites into one trip and trends she's seeing in different vacations, ages, groups, and destinations all over the world. How did you get into train travel?

[00:00:35] Liz: Thank you both for having me. I think talking travel is one of the things that makes you love your job, right? Coming from the consumer side. It's a lovely little happy place. I came into this business two years ago. I'm based here in Chicago. It was in my backyard. Two founders who are still involved in the business really drummed up the idea.

They were just passionate about travel and thought, wow, we've done so much traveling abroad. Would people be interested in traveling by rail in the States? Partnered with Amtrak and some providers locally and tested it. And it turned out people were very interested.

We're in our 20th year. Over the last 20 years, it's been a really interesting evolution from kind of North American travel, both escorted standpoint, but also independent in the last two years, getting into more Europe and rest of the world travel and seeing the variety of trips you can take via train and even some interesting land and river packages as well. It's a great time to be in travel. People are interested. We have this amazing opportunity to put people on these incredible trips and build these connections across the world.

[00:01:51] Nasreen: I know that y'all offer both escorted packages for rail and itineraries that are built out for people. Do most people choose to do the independent thing or go on the escorted tours?

[00:02:04] Liz: A lot of it is dependent upon the customer and what their interests are. For some of the longer escorted trips, you do tend to see an older demographic who's time rich and able to do it, but they also are coming off a pandemic. They want to meet other people.

They want to be able to just show up. They want it to be pain free and delightful. So escorted meets that value. Then you get into markets like the Canadian Rockies or even Alaska and the market lends itself to more independent travel because I may want to go and see wildlife and someone else may want to go up to Denali.

It offers this modularity and this ability to kind of tailor make it. But I'm even finding with this business, in some of the markets that were largely independent, there is a strong desire from the consumer to have it be escorted. And I think some of it is that everyone is tired, eager to travel and they just want to show up.

They want someone to take care of them and the escorted piece does allow for that.

[00:03:10] Nasreen: Absolutely. And Des, I know you and your daughter went on a train trip. I want to give you the opportunity to talk about that and then dive into some of the different trips and trends we're seeing with rail travel.

[00:03:22] Des: Sure. My first experience with trains was way back in college. I went to University of Florida and I wanted to go see D. C. and New York. I had two roommates and they said, let's take a train. And it was a great experience for three college kids just to jump on a train and go explore. And it was affordable because I was poor in college. I will say about seven or eight years ago my daughter and I took the Starlight train, the trip from Seattle all the way down to LA.

I think it's a 32 or 36 hour train trip. And that was all over Instagram or Pinterest at the time. It was the trip to take. My daughter was just getting into social media and she's, Oh, we should do this. I had to fly from Atlanta to Seattle which was an adventure in itself because we had a layover in Denver that was probably like five hours. I wasn't going to get a hotel. We got to sleep in the airport, which my daughter said she will never, ever, ever do again.

[00:04:20] Nasreen: My daughter said that too.

[00:04:22] Des: Yeah. Sorry, mom. I'm like, no, you go sleep in the cathedral. If that's how it works. She was not interested. But the point is we made it to Seattle and did a little exploring in Seattle before we boarded the train and took it all the way down into LA.

It was interesting. It definitely wasn't the beautiful Pinterest y experience that was promoted. I've said on the podcast before, American train stations, a lot of them really show you the backside of America and it's not all pretty. It was a little eye opening. When you do a trip like that, you don't Always get to get off at each stop.

we whizzed through. The best part of that was there was a national parks person on board who, as we went through certain areas, gave us the highlights and told us a little about the area. We were in the double decker glassed area. I mean, we didn't even sit in our seats the entire trip. We

dropped

[00:05:21] Liz: Observation car yeah,

[00:05:23] Des: We grabbed that and we were sitting facing the window. We saw the world go by. And that was super cool. And we met great people in that car. People slept in that car for the night. It was kind of like a community sleepover. We did not get a sleeper car, which was a mistake on mom's part. We should have. She was like, for real mom? Yeah, sometimes mom doesn't know the best. It was an adventure. I will say beyond that, I've done train trips in Europe. Europe is such a totally different experience. In fact, I plan retreats now and group getaways. And I just planned one for December for the European Christmas markets where we are going through five different European Christmas markets and we're going by train. The lights are at night and we want to see it at night with the lights.

So we're staying overnight in each city and then taking the train the next morning to the next one, three hours away. And then the next one and doing a loop of that. And I can't wait. I just think,

[00:06:22] Liz: It'll be amazing.

[00:06:23] Des: yeah.

[00:06:24] Liz: It's one of those experiences because we offer a Christmas markets cruise. And it's one of those where both our UK customers and our U S customer just love it. It's a wonderful time of year. The markets are all unique in their own right. But yeah, The variances in train experiences is probably the thing that's been most fascinating.

I mean, U. S. and Canada, part of why It's not the same experience is these were cargo rail lines. So they were built to move goods and Passengers were kind of secondary Whereas in Europe you're thinking more about the commuter and who needs to get where from a day to day consumer standpoint not just purely Cargo. The infrastructure from the get go is different. But I think some of the attention that brands like Rocky Mountaineer have brought to the market to kind of say, Hey, no, there's just interest in seeing this area of the world. And rail is a wonderful way to take people through it. I think that will evolve what we're doing.

Even if you look at markets like New England, where you have some commuter density. Anyone who lives in New York knows you can get upstate through a variety of means. Rail is one that people often choose. Because of the commuter demand I do think it will evolve over time and North America will have better options. You're already seeing things open in Florida. Now you have ways to get from Orlando to Miami that are very interesting. Las Vegas and LA are now connecting some rail, and I have lots of ideas in my head of what that rail trip is going to be like. But you're right, it's an adventure and I think what you brought up about the National Park Guide is another reason why people pick Escorted is because they like that enhancement.

They like knowing more about the journey. If you go on Glacier Express in Switzerland, you can take an escorted tour where you have a guide with you, but they also just give you headphones and it will tell you the story and you can listen in while you see the Alps go by. I do think that storytelling piece and what you described in the observation car around connecting with other people is part of why rail is so interesting right now. It is a slower mode of travel. The demand is making it not necessarily any cheaper, but the comfort of being able to move around, the ability to see some places that you normally wouldn't be able to access if you were going by car train. by plane. And then the people you meet, I mean, you feel like you could write a book about all the characters that you see along the way. You're all living this experience and connecting in a way that you and your daughter probably didn't even imagine when you signed up for the trip.

[00:09:24] Nasreen: That'll be your next book, Des. It'll be like Tales from the Boxcar.

[00:09:28] Liz: Yeah. Oh,

[00:09:31] Des: August. It's called 101 True Tales from the Terminal, and it's all about people and the wild, wacky, wonderful things you find in airports and airplanes. And someone did suggest, do trains next. And I said, well, I have a sequel for the airplanes coming out, but

if I do enough of this train stuff, without a doubt, yeah, you guys can sponsor that.

[00:09:50] Liz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:50] Des: The point is I agree. I think it is exciting. The trains in Europe were so easy to navigate and I had never thought about the difference where you said America being cargo because I have done the trains in the Northeast and I'm jealous. I'm in Atlanta and it's so hard to get

[00:10:09] Liz: Oh, it's so hard in Atlanta.

[00:10:10] Des: Yeah, I grew up in Florida and Brightline now flies right by my hometown Vero beach. But it goes from Miami up and over to Orlando. And I'm like, if I could just get them to stop right there.

[00:10:21] Nasreen: I'm spoiled. in the Northeast. We can easily get a train. I'm less than an hour into Boston. There's a million and one buses and ways to get there. And I take the train to New York routinely if I can. One thing, like you were saying, that the demand doesn't necessarily help the price is we're still looking at a model for regular train tickets where the price goes up as you get closer versus

Last minute specials, which I think locals would jump on.

But it's funny because we're talking about the rails and how they're evolving and the storytelling and the having the special folks on. And it's following kind of the timeline for me of luxury cruising where Regent went into bringing people on board who were specialists in the art or antiquities or areas they were going to and having them accompany the cruise for it.

It's similar to that market, especially when you're looking at those escorted older adults who want to meet people, get out there and see things. But it's the perfect setup because as much as we'd love to believe that rail has evolved or is going to continue evolving, and I'm going to age myself saying this, Michael Dukakis came to my college when I was there, and he was very into improving the rail lines.

This was after he ran for president. I'm not that old. But he was working with Amtrak at the time, and he was very into improving rail and making it more like Europe and the idea of us being able to get around and his vision for that as a college student who wanted to travel was inspiring and some of it has come to fruition, but we still have a long way to go.

But on the National Park Front, Des, they have a trip I was looking at that goes through Montana and Yellowstone, you hit so many in 12 days. It was impressive because Des is going to Zion in August.

[00:12:06] Des: Well, I'm doing the five parks. In fact, I got my permit for the wave, which is a really hard permit to get. They do like 40 a day and something like 40, 000 apply. It's insane. But I was looking this morning and like, what have I gotten myself into?

[00:12:21] Liz: It'll be so fabulous. I'm assuming you were looking at America's Great National Parks. I think we hit seven on that trip and it is the reason why people go. It's probably one of those tours that we offer where the rail consideration is almost secondary because it's this idea of When else am I going to be able to hit so many national parks and have it taken care of for me to be able to get in and out and know my way about the parks because I love to visit national parks. independently. But sometimes it's which side do you enter on? What attractions are on which side? How do you

navigate that? And I think doing that in an escorted fashion takes some of the guesswork out. And to hit seven of them is just,

[00:13:05] Des: Able to get on and off there. That's the case in that one.

[00:13:09] Liz: Well, with that one, you just take the rail out and then the rest of it is via coach. So you're getting on and off the coach trip. And I will say, even though we are built around rail, we have some really nice coaches. It's starting to feel just as luxurious when you're on some of these coaches as it is when you're sitting on the nice seat on the train.

[00:13:32] Des: Explain what a coach is doesn't

[00:13:34] Liz: A large bus

gotcha.

[00:13:36] Nasreen: So Des that trip specifically that America's great national parks. I saw it. And I know as travel writers, we wrote a lot about national parks and people wanted to know how to do it. It was a popular family summer trip and getting between them is challenging. Like you said, they're huge. You have to explain exactly where to go in.

And then there's also limited lodging between them.

And so this trip I saw it and I was like, Oh, this is perfect because it's Glacier, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Arches, and Canyonlands, and all of the lodging is taken care of, which is half the battle. I'm sure, you know, as you've been looking near the parks you're going to Des, that there aren't a lot of options.

We looked at adding one on, on one trip and we couldn't find lodging close enough to even make it an option that was available.

[00:14:20] Des: I'm flying blind. I'm looking at maps because again, I'm not from that area. I'm an East Coaster. I'm not joking. This morning at 6 a. m. I was like, okay, arches to pages, canyon land. And, and some of it's backtrack. I mean, I really, I was dumbfounded.

Making all the little pit stops in between because I do have to figure it out, like I booked two hotels that are five minutes apart. Thank God it was IHG and I could just put my rewards back. Can you imagine one day I'm driving five hours between parks and the next it's five minutes and I'm like, oh, good grief.

[00:14:52] Liz: I think that's why there's been more attention given to companies like ours because you're busy, you're working. You're just trying to delight your children and being able to have someone procure all those things, give you the recommended route, give you some timetables and vouchers, and it's curated. It takes some work off your plate. Hopefully because we've done it so long, you also have that confidence of like, okay, That's their recommendation and they know the parks in and out, they know rail in and out. That's kind of the beauty of this business. Most tour operators pick either group travel or independent travel. There's not many that kind of sit in this intersection of being able to give the consumer options. to say, Hey, do you want to travel with a group or would you like to explore independently?

And so hats off to the team here. They've found a way to be able to service both so that every type of consumer feels like they can benefit from our expertise.

[00:15:58] Nasreen: I'm curious about some of the trends that you're seeing. I think one of the big draws is that you guys managed to geographically accomplish a lot in the trips. I'm seeing foliage tours that go to Martha's Vineyard. You've strung together a lot of places that would traditionally be difficult for people to get to and require a lot of planning.

But overall, are there areas that you're seeing a big bump of interest in? And this can be worldwide. Feel free.

[00:16:24] Liz: I think there's two themes. One, that action packed adventure. I think when this business was built and you know, pre pandemic and even just the economic climate, the U S consumer value was around. How do I go somewhere and see the most? And so a lot of the consumer interest was built into the tours.

How do we get them access and how do we help them feel like they accomplished a lot in the time that they had? post pandemic you're starting to see this trend towards slow travel, which is why trains become interesting. But also I'm starting to see where the consumer's appetite to pack it all in is starting to shift. They have more time, they have more flexibility. They want more enriching moments. Now, I don't think we're yet at the pace of Europeans who often take two week holidays. But I am starting to see where the consumer is craving more time in market, more time to wander around, more time to explore.

Whereas in the past, it was just , get me all through Italy. I want to check every box. I want to see the things that my friends told me about. Then a trend around multi generational travel. I was always close with my grandmother, so traveling with her and going on road trips with her was my normal upbringing, but it is interesting to see the younger generation actively planning with their parents and their grandparents and wanting to go on trips. I'm also seeing this kind of girlfriend trip where I'll actually see on escorted trips not just partners going, but a group of friends signing up, sharing rooms. I was on one in the Southeast and it was just so fun to see.

And it was inspiring to me because these six ladies signed up to go and they were sharing rooms together, staying up late, watching shows and going to the convenience store and having drinks late at night in their hotel room while also doing all the activities during the day. Most of them had said, I came here 10 years ago, 20 years ago with my husband and we did all the historical things. I just wanted to shop. I just wanted to eat. I just wanted to have fun. So I thought I'd invite my girlfriends to go. You're starting to see that theme where you're getting friends together. You're maybe taking the kids. I do think as boomers get older, it's a great way to share in your wealth instead of stuff. How do you take them on experiences and enjoy time together? I think that's becoming more predominant with the U S consumer base.

[00:19:06] Des: talked about that quite a bit, that we are all experiences. You can give them mittens and maybe a knit cap under the tree, but it's pack your bags. We're going skiing. My demo where I have found the most interest, it's really empty nesters. I'm at that age now where everybody's kind of getting out of the house and I'm surrounded by people who are like, okay, what's next?

What am I going to do now? And travel is it. They are, tell me where to go and, and how to do it. And this is a perfect way to just hand them there. Someone else is going to take it for you. The other is, Women who are in their mid fifties, like I am. They are either widows, divorced, or have husbands who don't want to travel.

And they're like, I'm not going to sit home and wait for you. They are doing the girlfriend thing, but on their own where, where they're coming from around the globe, meeting in a city. And then going together. It's solo travel where they end up in a group. They're dipping their toes in the water.

They're not ready to do two weeks in Europe all by themselves, but they'll get on the plane and meet you there

[00:20:12] Nasreen: And that's what I'm seeing as well. We've discussed Girlfriend Getaway and how generationally things are different, that we may not keep friends from our youth because everyone moves so much now and is scattered. I'm early 40s, and I know that for me, I'm in groups in the area that do events for women who are just trying to get out and meet more people and that trend is moving younger and younger and younger where once our kids are old enough to be left, without too much trouble with the spouse or, grandparents people are starting those trips with friends even earlier to just do something for themselves and realizing that All the money doesn't have to go to a group trip that doesn't necessarily fit everyone's needs.

I know that I constantly see calls for we're going to set up a cruise. We're going to set up this event or that event. Is anyone interested? Because people want to get out and explore. I know that with train travel in general, I do have to wonder a little bit. If just all the hiccups, Des, we've done so many episodes on travel delays and drama and summer travel and preparing and just all the things that are going wrong right now and unexpected.

And even the price of rental cars, right? You used to be able to grab a rental car for like 20 a day. Now, arranging something where you can get off at multiple stops and not have to think about driving in between or getting a rental car in between at each one, to me that's magical.

[00:21:34] Des: Yeah. I was getting calls last night from a girlfriend who was flying, flying from California to Florida and she had a layover. She was texting me going, the last six straight trips, there have been issues with me getting there. Her dad is 89 and she said, my poor dad is going to have to get me at the airport at 1am at this point.

And I feel horrible. And I just like, tell him to nap. I'm impressed. Your dad's 89 and still driving. Kiddo, it's just, it is roll with it time. And if you are someone who cannot roll with it I would not suggest flying anymore because that is just the norm. It is. The trains , are they having similar issues or are the trains on track?

[00:22:16] Liz: You know, it's a different climate than the airport. The pent up demand for travel is affecting everyone who's in the space. I don't want to say it is void of any delays, but you look at a market like Switzerland and part of why people love it is you can get everywhere by train. And I have to say those trains run on time. They are ticked and tied. If you talk to a local, they'll be like, Oh, they're delayed, but it's like five minutes, you know?

As 50 minutes. And so, it's market by market. they're going through strikes and labor considerations and things like that. I do think there's this recalibration that's happening at the same time.

People are like, I want out, I want to go explore. And so I think everyone's dealing with it, but I will say for train travel, that pre-trip time and that post trip time don't look the same as they do when you're at the airport. I mean, you get on, You find your area, you try to line up with where your car is and you get on.

And in Europe, the wayfinding for that of where you need to stand based on what class is is really good. You go over to Union Station, there's still a little bit of guesswork, but it's not like, getting out to the airport and going through.

[00:23:36] Des: You're right. I remember that, you know, the last time I took a train from New York City out to Long Island, it was a bit of a guessing game for me but I figured it out. But in Europe, boy, could it not be easier? I mean, they have the marquee at the top.

It's just like finding a flight. You want this thing. It was so easy.

[00:23:55] Liz: The nice thing with rail that we always say is there's no middle seat. Even if you're in a coach, it does feel more spacious. I've seen people not just on the starlight, but even on the Southwest chief, they will not get a room or a bedroom. They're going to do a coach.

I remember walking through and I was quite amazed at what people could do to get decent sleeping accommodations out of coach. It was a little twin bed. That, and the ability to move around a little more, the observation cars, that part, I do think makes it a little more comfortable, even if you know you're going to be on.

Longer.

[00:24:32] Des: That was the first thing I posted when I got on the train. I had my memories pop up the other day and it was like sitting in your dad's recliner. It is a totally different chair. It is not a plastic seat that reclines. Now they won't even make the airplane seats recline at all because they had so many fights.

On the Amtrak one basic coach, it was like sitting in your dad's plush recliner and you get two together, man, my daughter was all over me.

[00:24:56] Nasreen: Oh my goodness. Are there specific destinations that you're seeing people discover or that are coming to more popularity right now?

[00:25:06] Liz: It was interesting coming from retail because there was a huge amount of interest in the products we sold that were around National Park. That's seen the resurgence here in the States, Rocky Mountaineer really. glamorizes the Canadian Rockies and it's a sight to see and really amazing up there. For me, it's that consumer who's been wanting to go to Europe, go into markets like Switzerland where the rail travel is just iconic. Everything you see and the way they conduct it is really nice. And then it follows some normal trends. We had tons of demand for Italy, like everyone else. Every American dreams of their Italian summer. We're starting to see interest in markets like Japan. It's also a quintessential market. One of our kind of landmark tours that have always lived in the heritage of the two brands is up in Scotland. And again, The scenery while you're sitting on a rail car is just incredible. You get up to the Highlands and you're able to kind of see everything from cities to country and learn about the history and really have your own little Harry Potter moment, you know? And so we'll see that. And I do think we laugh about Harry Potter. I do think the U S consumer is sometimes inspired by the shows that they watch.

[00:26:28] Des: Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:26:29] Liz: I'm pretty certain some of the Italian interest kind of came out of White Lotus, Scotland has a number of things driving it.

You're on your scroll and you're inspired by the images you see there. That really gets like the travel bug going. I think that's where you start to see some of the trends come to life. So travel isn't too dissimilar. I think for me, we don't always see the interest in the places that don't have trains, even though we have the ability to do some non rail things.

The biggest thing for our business is starting to build that beyond rail proposition, which would. Leave us able to service our existing customers who maybe don't want to do rail this trip. Maybe they just want to unpack once and do more of a hub and spoke experience somewhere. That's an opportunity that's unique to us. But those big sweeping trends from a market level still kind of. Are in our business northern lights,

Alaska Norway that continues to grow year over year. And again, I think it's really Instagrammable. People are inspired because they see it. It's all over the news and everyone wants to be a part of it.

[00:27:40] Nasreen: And are those grand rail vacations? Those all looked like ones that were nine plus nights. A lot of them were 13, 14. I was looking at the one across Australia and it's multiple trains and coaches And Australia. As a place to visit, there's so much space, so it's another one of those situations of packing in everything.

Have you seen, with the flexibility to kind of work remotely or take more time off, more people doing those longer vacations at this point?

[00:28:07] Liz: Yeah. I think the flexibility. And then I think the U S consumer likes to memorialize big Life events. So birthdays, anniversaries. They'll often pick a trip like that, which that one's been trending as well as New Zealand. They'll pick those types of trips because they want to commemorate something major in their life.

That trip in particular, a lot of people even try to team it up with the New Zealand one. They'll fly over, they'll do the one and then they'll do the other. It's just one of those once in a lifetime opportunities. So I am seeing more of those cruises you'll see in the notes. I'm taking this cruise because it's an anniversary or they'll have a really charming story about the last time they were there and they want to introduce that time to someone else. There is a lot of sentiment and choices that I see in the business that I didn't anticipate when I took it. And I worked for a company, a retailer that celebrated life's moment. So it's interesting to see that in the vacation space and the full nature of how people are choosing these and the sentiment behind some of them.

I just didn't anticipate that to carry over from my past life.

[00:29:21] Des: If you need someone planning an empty nester travel bender, I did that one last year. a whole lot of friends,

[00:29:27] Liz: go?

[00:29:28] Des: Europe, two months in Europe. Country hopped based in Barcelona. After the first two weeks, I worked from there, but then I did three day weekends where I hit a different country cause it's so easy.

[00:29:40] Liz: We actually introduced some multi-country touring. We had a few but we had a new product that we launched. It goes from London to Paris into Switzerland and down into Venice, Florence and Rome because the U. S. customer is often like, I don't know when I'll get back over here. How do I see as much as possible? We are looking at some other ways to do some multi-country touring. It is interesting with rail because each country Has a different approach to rail clear down to the science and technology of their rail system. Sometimes it changes over once you cross borders so stitching that together versus those grand tours where you're staying in 1 place

[00:30:23] Nasreen: How do you figure out what the next tours are going to be? Is that a job that's available because,

[00:30:31] Liz: So it's interesting. Across most tour operators, the product really leads it and they're kind of looking at the trends and pulling things together through their various partners. Myself and my CEO coming from the consumer side thought there should be a little more intention and strategy around what you roll out just so that customer experience can be considered. It's easy to sit in a spreadsheet and kind of look at a map, but then when you're in it, you're like, Ooh, this seemed like it was going to work, but I didn't think of X, Y, or Z. So it's part of the evolution we're bringing across the two brands is how do we have that consumer lens when we're pulling it together? How do we kind of crawl, walk, run on some of these. We don't want to be spreadsheet product designers. We want that authenticity of being in the market. And so we are introducing new products. We're trying to pull from customer interest, customer demand, and really being thoughtful about that.

One of the benefits I have is having our parent company in the UK. I mean, they've done rail touring for 50 years. And so that local expertise that I'm able to get from a partner who's based in Europe and has done touring in some of these markets, I think brings a lot of benefit to the U. S. consumer. You've got someone who's been there operating and knows the ins and outs, even down to these strikes and service . We're probably slower than some others in terms of introducing new products, because we're trying to be really intentional and thinking about the whole experience, not just that map. And you say, Oh, that map's hitting everything. We want to think about, what is that experience when you're on it? Are you getting enough time? How much touring versus rest? What sort of information are you looking for out of your tour director? We have quite a few experts that we bring together to figure out what that tour design should look like.

[00:32:36] Des: I think that's an important distinction. I do, because I'm planning retreats now myself. It's not just, okay, they've booked the trip. It's taking care of them, making sure they're good before the trip. They have what they need on the trip and loving them after. It's really making the whole experience.

It's not just the seven days they're with us.

[00:32:56] Liz: I want to be a company that they come back to. I don't want to just be , Oh, I found you on Google. I did a trip, but now I've moved on. We want to build that relationship with the customer. They want to be able to trust someone. And so I do think you have to slow it down a bit. So that you can get that pre tour and that post touring right.

[00:33:17] Nasreen: That makes a lot of sense because I love the thought process and the time and energy that goes into it. And I know that you and Desiree both understand that a lot. I'm a little bit on the other side with SEO and writing and predicting and business consulting, it's about trying to figure out what's coming next.

So I'm sitting here going, okay, there's a lot of people going to Albania a year after a bunch of travel writers went, that's next. Sri Lanka, a giant amount of railways.

[00:33:43] Nasreen: Lots of outreach from their government ministry of tourism, , Oh, that one's coming next. That's my thought process.

[00:33:50] Liz: My CEO, Dave Riley, he comes from the consumer world and That's what we're trying to endorse. You're right.

We have to take all that info in. My commercial teams got their finger on the pulse of what's next while the product team is really looking at how we refine this experience so that people want to come back. They feel excited before they even board and they feel very fulfilled once it's over.

Between those two teams, I think historically it was more of a relay race and now it's more collaborative. Speed to market and travel is fascinating to me compared to retail where you had like six weeks of newness all the time. Then travel you're like, Oh, I might not know the result of this for another year before people are out.

[00:34:33] Nasreen: One of the questions that I'm dying to ask, because I know that we all have this, right? Have you ever written an article or been like, Oh, I love that trip. I love that topic and it doesn't perform for some reason. It's your baby. And you're I really thought that one was going to do good.

I love that one. That one, people don't recognize how great this is. Is there a specific tour or country or area in your giant stack of options that people are not jumping on board with or that is unsung and way more people should be looking into it.

[00:35:05] Liz: Yes, one that I think is unsung and it has been a real head scratcher for me, is the PAC Northwest. We do so much touring in the national parks.

We do so much in the Rockies. We have two escorted options and others that touch that area. And I just am Surprised every year that there isn't more interest in exploring Columbia River Gorge, some of those areas along the coast. It's a really beautiful area, much like Scotland, sometimes drizzly. It's not a beach vacation, but in terms of picturesque and Instagrammable, I'm just always surprised that there isn't more interest pulled that way.

[00:35:50] Des: Maybe that's how you need to market it because I don't have a grand desire to go. I mean, I did Seattle and wasn't super impressed. I am, my daughter saw things that she's like, mom, what does that man do? It was not pleasant. But if you marketed it as the Scotland of America, that's a whole different audience.

[00:36:09] Liz: Yeah.

Yeah.

[00:36:12] Nasreen: cuisine and culture one and that one I'm all like, Oh, breweries and eating and art. Yeah, I could do that.

[00:36:18] Liz: Yes. Yeah.

[00:36:19] Des: Yes.

That

[00:36:20] Liz: was a new one because our other cuisine and cultures had done so well. We thought, this is such a great area and there's so much good farmland, great cheeses. Good beer. It just hasn't yet found its momentum, but I'm still hopeful.

[00:36:35] Nasreen: That's where all the Alaskan cruises leave from. You just need to get those luxury Alaskan cruisers.

[00:36:40] Liz: get them to stay a little longer.

[00:36:42] Des: This has been a great conversation. I think it's eye opening for a lot of people. I know the emphasis has been on fixing infrastructure in the last couple of years, really putting some money behind it. And I hope that it leads to greater things because there is nothing better.

I love the idea of making it into an entire trip and an adventure and something more memorable.

Like you said, exciting and fulfilling.

[00:37:03] Liz: yeah.

[00:37:04] Nasreen: Just knowing that there are options that can combine that rail service that does exist with something else, because I think In my mind, I don't necessarily think, Oh, there's an operator out there who can bridge the gaps. So when we lived in Texas, Big Bend was a huge love of ours, but

It's hours and hours from anywhere. It's a six hour drive for us to get there. The closest train station, it only leaves a couple times from Houston and it went all the way and left in Marfa. And then you get off in that Alpine Marfa area. And then what do you do? You've got to get a car.

But knowing that you guys are bridging these gaps and making these larger itineraries. And that if you want to take the train to look for an operator around that, kind of gives that extra option that I think maybe we don't all just jump to in our head.

[00:37:51] Liz: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:37:53] Nasreen: Well, we really appreciate you coming on and chatting with us.

I know that we love train travel in general and the idea of it. Honestly, I'm all about the value proposition of putting a bunch of things I didn't think would fit together. I'm excited to look into the itineraries more. Also for listeners, I did want to say that there is a last minute section with special deals, if you're flexible and you might just want to get on a train.

Look at that. There were some good deals.

[00:38:20] Liz: So many good deals. We're still able to get some people up into Canada. We have a great fall program. Lots of leaf peeping. And we did just launch our 2025 early booking offer. It is the best time to get a really sharp discount. That's live now and hits most of the markets we travel to.

[00:38:42] Nasreen: Thank you so much. And until next week, when we come back to you with another topic on Time to Talk Travel, Des wants to wish you

[00:38:51] Des: happy travels!